Who made YOU the lesbian police?

There are more that 2 sexes y'know. I think YOU'LL find the problem here is YOU'RE lack of education.

Right, I've been asked to expand my comment. So heres the basics. There are more than 2 sexes, there is more than just male and female, there are trans men and women, there are intersex people, there are genderqueers there are people who refused to be labelled. This means that there are more than 3 sexualities, more than gay, straight and bisexual. To force someone from one label to another is sheer arrogance. Who are you to dictate to anyone what their ID is? Or dictate how that ID should fit them? Or dictate the rules of that ID? I am fed up of seeing the identities of anyone who isn't 'male or female' being completely disregarded, completely ignored. It's not good enough to plead ignorance, it's not good enough to say there's no malicious intent. You have made sweeping generalisations and completely devalued these groups of people, can you even grasp the concept of how fucking arrogant and disrespectful that is??

I wrote a very long response in reply to this blog the other night and then went and lost the lot. I was on form the other night, today not so, so this will be a very watered down version of what I wanted to say :D

First off, I'd like to state catagorically that I respect everyone, regardless of their ID, their relationships, their gender or lack of.

I think this debate comes down to one very simple premise. It is not about fluidity of ID, how one's ID pertains if they transition, find themselves with a partner who transitions, or even where they have been in their sexual past. Simply, it is about the ID "lesbian". A lesbian is a woman (born or otherwise)who's relationships are emotionally and sexually with other women.

I've been following the blogger referred to in this post and listening to their podcasts for some time. The argument, as I see it is with women who recreationally and frequently sleep with bio men, and then call themselves lesbians. Stripping back all the other conversations about ID, women who sleep regularly with bio men are surely biexual?

I support everyone's right to ID how they choose, and we all walk our own paths in life, but a woman who regualrly sleeps with bio men isn't a lesbian. There is NOTHING wrong with being bi, queer, whatever.... these IDs are just as valid as that of lesbian. We're not talking about who we were before we came out or who we tried it with out of curiosity, we're talking about recreational heterosexuality.

The argument in question was around the film "The Kids are ALright" too... where, again, a so-called film about Lesbians shows the lesbian as needing to get fucked by a man. It is another example of how media and society constantly undermine the lesbian ID by perpetuating the myth that lesbians just need a good man. It's homophobic and mysogynistic to say this.

What hopes have lesbians got in asserting their IDs as valid in this world when constantly is is affirmed that it's ok to see us as sexual objects for consupmtion by men, and to ask to watch, and to harrass us because lets face it, all every dyke needs is a real cock. It's BS.

Great comment. There really is no debate around the issue of Lesbian sexuality. Though some lunatics would like there to be, there isn't. Some unbalanced people make everything about them because they they are unbalanced.

They are lacking in education.

Lesbians are Lesbians.

No one understands all of these terms w/o ppl explaining what they are ..biothis biothat ... but truthfully it's irrelevant because Lesbians sleep with women and and that's pretty much the end of it. If they sleep with trans or whatever then they are queer and Lesbian identified but they are not Lesbians if they are giving BJs and having sex with penis. Penis is male and it's not a Vagina. Let's get a grip here.

As a Lesbian I do not have to change to appease self centered lunacy and none of us ever will. Gay men don't tolerate this stupidity. Many trans people are very anti-lesbian and woman hating. This isn't our problem and no one takes these silly arguments seriously anyway because they are ridiculous.

On the other hand, if a woman is in a relationship with a woman but finds herself seriously attracted to men and can definitely see herself sleeping with a man or has frequent threesomes with men then she's certainly bisexual. There's nothing wrong with being bisexual. If she is only in relationships with women and has occaisional sex with men she is still bisexual but perhaps Lesbian identified. The rest of your explanatoin regarding the movie and how it affects the L in lgbt which clearly no one cares about, except Lesbians, is right on. Sounds like you hav a clearer understanding and not becoming offensive before understanding something. Good on you.

"Many trans people are very anti-lesbian and woman hating."

On behalf of all the trans people in the world, fuck you.

Yep, you want to be taken seriously as a woman? HAHHAHHA What a joke. You are a typical man. A bully to women. You might scare those little PC lesbians with no brain but the rest of us aren't putting up with your bullsh. You are a typic man...a bully woman-hater. Go take your hormones unbalanced bully. Then you want people to take you seriously "I'm a woooooman I'm a wooooman" while you act like typical MAN-BULLY.

"I'm a woman just like you?" What is your benchmark buddy? According to WHAT benchmark?! Please you are man/bully like the majority of other men. Envious of women, woman hater.

On behalf of every woman you've ever bullied because you are pissed you were born with a disgusting dick and you think you can bully women around because you shave your legs and we won't call you what you are ....a sexist woman-hating misogynist: Fuck you, pig.

Please be aware that although this article was intended to provoke discussion, we will NOT tolerate bullying and abuse. The last 2 comments will be removed ASAP.

Vic

Wow, some people on her are MEAN (not to mention transphobic) I will refrain from commenting on their views and instead comment on the original article.

I too have followed this debate on twitter with some interest, especially as a bi-sexual. In the past I have dated men and women, although for the last four years I have only dated women. The reason I count myself as bi-sexual is in my head I feel bi-sexual. I am equally attracted to men and women, it's just the last two people I have fell in love with have happened to be female. For me connection with the person is more important than what's between their legs. Much as I love my girlfriend, if for some reason we were to break up I feel I would be equally as likely to date a male or female. (I could write a whole lot more about bi-phobia from lesbians/ gay men/ straight colleagues. But now is not the time!)

Anyway, the reason I tell you this is my girlfriend counts herself as lesbian. She too has had previous relationships with men and women (both of us came out in you mid twenties and she has slept with men since coming out)however, if asked her sexual orientation she would say lesbian. She feels like a lesbian in her head. She is attracted to women, and if we were to break up is pretty sure she would date only women. According to the blogger I believe my girlfriend would be counted as bi-sexual. But surely it's up to an individual to class their own sexuality, not someone writing on the internet on the other side of the world?

Some of my heterosexual friends have had gay experiences when they were younger. As a bi-sexual I don't feel the need to tell them that they must now class themselves as bi-sexual, in the same way that my lesbian friends who have had the odd experience with a man are still lesbians.

Keep up the good work on the blog x

Woah, this suddenly got a little extreme! There's a line and that there is transphobic bullying. There are people in every community, trans included, who have problems with lesbians. Evidence below that there's also transphobia in ours. We need to fight for our ID but trans people are not our enemies and the comment below is out of order.

The "Fuck you" was out of order too. That was inflammatory and unnecessary. At that point is was still a debate and hadn't escalated.

Well done, what a response! And just to clear things up, Im not a trans woman, I wasn't born with a dick.

Victoria, I can appreciate your point, but that comment, the one that mine was in response to, was just a giant 'fuck you' to every trans person. I was completely out of line.

IT was out of line.*

I think for me personally my Sexual identity is quite black and white yet my ID is fluid.
I ID as a Lesbian as i have no attraction physical or otherwise towards men. Therefore i define Lesbian as someone who doesn't sleep with men. That's not to say that it defines someone who has never slept with men. Surely up until the point we define ourselves we are neutral. I labelled myself as Lesbian before ever having kissed or slept with a woman. Yet i had kissed boys though never slept with one yet i knew i that i was a Lesbian. I have friends who were married to men and have children yet discovered their identity as a lesbian later on in life and i would never choose to muddy there decision to refer to their own preference that way. As much as we all like to prevent ourselves from fitting in boxes we always end up doing so.

There is nothing wrong with labeling yourself bisexual, lesbian, gay, queer the list is endless. But every word originates with a definition and people can feel very strongly about these in regards to people just frivolously attaching this label to themselves. Who are we to dictate?

I digress and hope i've managed to retain some connection to the original blog :) In short. I think everyone has a right to feel they can be whatever they like without someone telling them they're not doing it right. But people need to respect others definitions of ID. Not one of us is the same. we just try to bend the terms to fit our feelings.

I'd like make the following observations.

There is no hyphen in bisexual.

Diva is a magazine for lesbians and bisexual women.

Sensible shoes for women are not the sole preserve of lesbians and bisexual women who are leading a lesbian lifestyle. Also it is not illegal, and neither is it unkown, for a lesbian to wear high heels.

Wikipedia lists Sappho as a Bisexual writer and a Lesbian writer. And even if Sappho was not a bisexual or homosexual woman she could still be described as a Lesbian writer because she was from Lesbos.

Describing someone as bisexual does not necessarily imply that the person in question definitely has the emotional capacity to fall in love regardless of gender.

If you are a bisexual woman who has same-sex relationship you cannot avoid being called as a lesbian.

The majority of bisexual people aren't leading a bisexual lifestyle.

Further -

Even if it's true that you have never met a man who actually turned you on - if you nevertheless regularly fantasise about sex with men and you don't completely rule out having a man-based adventure with your wife then it's not unreasonable for someone to describe you as "bi-curious" (there is a hyphen in bi-curious :) ) at the very least. And then, if you have already had sexual relationships with men what have you got to be curious about?

If you are a lesbian identified woman who has had sex and relationships with men then it's best to keep quiet about your fantasies about having sex with men if you don't want anyone describing you as bisexual.

So do I think you're bisexual then Victoria?

Yeah - a bit.

Do I think you shouldn't call yourself a lesbian then?

No, it's up to you. You're a woman with a wife so most people will describe you as lesbian anyway.

That was pretty much spot on Geri. I think way too much emphasis is put on people putting others, or themselves in boxes. It's almost like being told you can't join a particular club if you haven't got the right clothes to wear.

Sexuality is fluid. Everyone at some point in their lives will have a shift in the sexuality - some will notice a big shift, others wont notice much at all - but it does happen. In that respect it is senseless to identify so strongly with what is essentially a label. Lesbian? Bi? Queer? Gay? Straight? Somewhere they will blur.

It is pretty much accepted that a lot of people have same sex experiences when younger then go on to lead a "straight" lifestyle. And they would identify with being straight. This in the context of the argument presented would be wrong. How could they be straight if they had had sex with others of the same gender?

It is also quite noticeable that a lot of "straight" people in later life decide to opt out and accept their gay preferences. For whatever reason - maybe they no longer feel peer pressure, maybe they have had a family and have "done their bit", maybe they fear dying not having experienced what they feel they truly are. I can confirm that I feel much like the above and now I consider myself to be queer and interested in sex in a lesbian relationship - although at times the thought of a cock does appeal.

What does that make me? Bi or a Lesbian or a Lesbian identified Bisexual? Hmm... Queer thats what. And I am happy with that. I don't need to fit into boxes so I can join a militant club - with dictats from extremists. I am sure that there are plenty of girls and guys out there who understand and accept that we are all different and thats what makes life interesting.

In short - identify with what you feel comfortable with. If someone with a harder line questions your self identification then suggest that perhaps there should be a further category for extreme hetero-phobes and perhaps they should be in those catgeories rather than identifying as lesbian or gay.

Just my thoughts

Haven't we became stuck up trough centuries...

I'm pansexuel (as long as it's over 18 and human xD).

Why should we care about giving the name to what we love as long as we love it ? Doesn't giving a name to it is pushing to be "trapped". It would be nice if all those word "gay, lesbian, etc..." could be use in a long term way as much as for the current moment of your life. But people prefere to use those words as "box" to put you into, and for life or it means that you "weren't true". What the hell ?

I wish you all happyness, sorry my english isn't perfect (yet).